View Full Version : Dune 3.0 and Surround Audio streams handling (include HD audio streams)
Hi guys,
after many reports of users (special thanks to jamesuk & Myasinax, and others too) and many my internal tests I compile a table with all possibilities (I hope that itīs all :-)) how can HDi Dune 3.0 handle with all Surround Audio streams including the HD audio codecs - according audio outputs / Connected audio device / Dune audio settings.
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac271/rudku/Dune30_HD_audio2-1.jpg
Notes about content:
- Dune handle with HD tracks for all HD sources the same way (BD disc, BDMV, BD-ISO and M2TS)
(tested and we donīt find any differences).
Notes about bugs:
- Any issue is reported with decoding Surround Audio streams and HD audio streams to this time.
- we have some audio issues, published here: http://www.mpcclub.com/forum/showpost.php?p=169207&postcount=1, but no issues with decoding audio streams
Notes about Analog outputs to AV receiver 5.1:
- Mix surround mode - is a wish of many users with AV receivers (5.1) with only analog inputs:
(Analog Output 7.1 to AV receiver 5.1) Surround channels are mixed with surround back channels (SR+SBR, SL+SBL)
- [**] Discard surround mode - currently only one possibility how connect Dune with AV receiver 5.1 via analog outputs 7.1 - reject 2 surround channels and lost sound from it.
In this case, we donīt need in Dune audio setting changes - only physically will be 2 surround channels no connected via cable.
Notes about this thread:
- I open this thread, because many users or potential buyers are want know these information. We have it on this forum, but these information are hidden and divided in many threads.
- And I want move all discussion about Dune and audio from thread "Bugs and Wishes on Dune BD Prime 3.0".
- And the last point - Iīll actualize the table in first contribution of this thread, we youīll find mistake...
So, please, can you check this table and give a feedbacks.
One question: is this no difference with source of HD sound track (BD disc, BD-ISO, BDMV or .m2ts file)?
AFAIR, C-200 has trouble with f.e. HD sound from .m2ts files, but also use new SDK, when Prime 3.0 uses old one...
One question: is this no difference with source of HD sound track (BD disc, BD-ISO, BDMV or .m2ts file)?
AFAIR, C-200 has trouble with f.e. HD sound from .m2ts files, but also use new SDK, when Prime 3.0 uses old one...
I add this information to original contribution.
Thanks for the table Rudku, but might be me but it looks like there's an error in it.
When you look at the Spdif & HDMI section you've listed all decoded PCM streams as being output as 2.0 channel.
PCM is nothing more than demuxing the encoded streams in the audio track and outputting them all if i'm correct.
So decoding a 5.1 channel DD stream to LPCM will result in a 6 channel output to your reciever.
PCM is nothing else than demuxing a container to a PCM stream.
Either the reciever does this and shows it get's a DD5.1 track or the Dune does this and the reciever shows a multichannel input.
Thanks for the table Rudku, but might be me but it looks like there's an error in it.
When you look at the Spdif & HDMI section you've listed all decoded PCM streams as being output as 2.0 channel.
PCM is nothing more than demuxing the encoded streams in the audio track and outputting them all if i'm correct.
So decoding a 5.1 channel DD stream to LPCM will result in a 6 channel output to your reciever.
PCM is nothing else than demuxing a container to a PCM stream.
Either the reciever does this and shows it get's a DD5.1 track or the Dune does this and the reciever shows a multichannel input.
I know, itīs a strange and no-logic, but no mistake.
I double check it in my tests.
I received on my AV receiver "Stereo" signal, when I switch to LPCM 5.1 or LPCM 7.1 audio track.
I thought that problem is in my AV receiver, but after little researching on web, I find that the other BD players (f.e. Pioneer) handling with LPCM audio track via Digital SPDIF outputs, the same way - converting to 2 channel audio.
Please, test it on your sets, and confirm me, if Iīm right.
hi rudku,
for analog outputs it should never say PCM.
It's an analog signal, not a pulse code modulation signal in that case.
Just list the number of channels for analog output.
Also, when analog 7.1 out is connected to a receiver with just 5.1 channel input and your source signal has more than 5.1 channels there will be no downmix. The side surround channels are simply not connected in that case and are thus effectively discarded. Ideally Dune should offer a setup option that would allow us to choose how to handle that situation, i.e. 2 options:
discard the side surround channels (that's what it does atm)
mix the side surround channels into the rear surround channel to ensure that all effects are played back
I do assume that is what you wanted to express by "wish" in your table, but it just isn't clear for any outsider looking at it.
Btw, I'm still looking into the DTS-HD test files and haven't got a final conclusion yet. TrueHD is covered as explained in my post 2 days ago.
jamesuk
For reference, here's my post about the TrueHD over analog outs post:
May I ask (with current Analog output as per yr.comment here), Is the HD audio (True-HD, DTS-HD/MA) being decoded onboard by Dune(as-if being done on HD-AVR via HDMI) in Full Hi-def Sound Quality? I don't mind loosing 2 Surr.Ch. (when using with 5.1 Pre-in) as long as it's not down-sampling before decoded for analog output.Thx
I can confirm that the Dune actually decodes the TrueHD track, and not the interleaved AC3 part of such a track. I had someone create a special test track for that purpose: a TrueHD track that uses an AC3 track with completely different contents, i.e. when a player can only decode the interleaved AC3 track you will just hear audio from a movie, and when your player/decoder can decode TrueHD you will hear a channel test track (7.1 left right center ....). That way I was also able to confirm that the Dune does indeed simply discard the side surround channels when using analog outs to connect it to a receiver with 5.1 analog inputs.
HDi should probably offer a setup option to let users decide whether they want these side surround channels to be discarded, or mixed into the rear channels.
Btw, I'm currently testing a similar track for DTS-HD, but due to the much higher complexity of that format it is much more difficult to create a similar test track to the one used for TrueHD tests.
jamesuk
hi rudku,
for analog outputs it should never say PCM.
It's an analog signal, not a pulse code modulation signal in that case.
Just list the number of channels for analog output.
Also, when analog 7.1 out is connected to a receiver with just 5.1 channel input and your source signal has more than 5.1 channels there will be no downmix. The side surround channels are simply not connected in that case and are thus effectively discarded. Ideally Dune should offer a setup option that would allow us to choose how to handle that situation, i.e. 2 options:
discard the side surround channels (that's what it does atm)
mix the side surround channels into the rear surround channel to ensure that all effects are played back
I do assume that is what you wanted to express by "wish" in your table, but it just isn't clear for any outsider looking at it.
Thanks jamesuk.
I modified table according your notes.
...When you look at the Spdif & HDMI section you've listed all decoded PCM streams as being output as 2.0 channel.
PCM is nothing more than demuxing the encoded streams in the audio track and outputting them all if i'm correct.
So decoding a 5.1 channel DD stream to LPCM will result in a 6 channel output to your reciever...
Not, if you use SPDIF connection. It is not capable to transmitting multichannel LPCM, only DD, DTS and stereo LPCM (even with high bitrate and sample frequency, but only stereo).
But with HDMI is another story, Dune might be (is?) capable to on-board decoding DTS HD MA or DD Tr HD to LPCM 7.1 (just like some other BD players do).
Is it possible getting output of sound digital on the HDMI and analog at stereo at the same time? I want to choose using AV-receiver or television for sound.
I know, itīs a strange and no-logic, but no mistake.
I double check it in my tests.
I received on my AV receiver "Stereo" signal, when I switch to LPCM 5.1 or LPCM 7.1 audio track.
I thought that problem is in my AV receiver, but after little researching on web, I find that the other BD players (f.e. Pioneer) handling with LPCM audio track via Digital SPDIF outputs, the same way - converting to 2 channel audio.
Please, test it on your sets, and confirm me, if Iīm right.
Here is some theory from Dolby Labs:
http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/zz-_Shared_Assets/English_PDFs/Professional/DPlus_TrueHD_whitepaper.pdf
Here is some theory from Dolby Labs:
http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/zz-_Shared_Assets/English_PDFs/Professional/DPlus_TrueHD_whitepaper.pdf
Thanks for link.
Theory is a nice thing, but unfortunately, every producer has a custom implementation of standards :-(
Then, all results in this table are based on real tests.
is it true 5.1 HD-Audio gets 5.1 DD or 5.1 DTS when using a 5.1 receiver, as there are 5.1 AVRs that are capable of HD-Audio.
SmartArse88
04-12-09, 16:10
Not, if you use SPDIF connection. It is not capable to transmitting multichannel LPCM, only DD, DTS and stereo LPCM (even with high bitrate and sample frequency, but only stereo).
But with HDMI is another story, Dune might be (is?) capable to on-board decoding DTS HD MA or DD Tr HD to LPCM 7.1 (just like some other BD players do).
Yes and that was the basis of my questions on the problems thread. It was answered that yes the multichannel soundtracks (HD ones at least not sure about 'normal' DTS and DD) get decoded to multichannel PCM and delivered vis the HDMI connection, so that column needs addressing.
Not sure if you can get both 6 and 8 channel LPCM over HDMI...
Hi,
is it true 5.1 HD-Audio gets 5.1 DD or 5.1 DTS when using a 5.1 receiver, as there are 5.1 AVRs that are capable of HD-Audio.
on SP/DIF yes even if the AVR has HD support. On HDMI no. So no HD audio for us 3805 user when using SP/DIF.
Ralf
So the graphic should be updated, as it is stating that for HDMI as well.
I also own the 3805, I will use analog outs, so what do I get there? Isn`t this a HD-Audio-signal?
I re-worked the HDMI section in table...
In case of HDMI connection is important EDID - handshaking between two connected devices.
Audio output is depended of this "deal".
I have described this in notes below table, but will be better if I create own column for each case:
- If the connected HDMI device is not compatible with Dolby TrueHD or Dolby Digital Plus bitstream, the signals are output in linear PCM (7.1 channels) or Dolby bitstream.
- If the connected HDMI device is not compatible with Dolby Digital bitstream, the signals are output in linear PCM (2 channels).
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac271/rudku/Dune30_HD_audio.jpg
This small table is based on theory. I tested only first column of this table.
I donīt have a possibility test the next cases of HDMI connection.
So, pls. can you test it, and confirm me correctness of data from this table.
When Iīll have a confirmed it, Iīll update table on first contribution.
EDIT:
changed data in column PCM (decode) to AV receiver (7.1)
What is the LfE connector for? Is this the connector for the subwoofer? Do not hear any sound from the LfE. I have a Denon AV 1801 (5.1 ) receiver. Want True HD sound . What are the Sound settings in the setup menu?
macroMaggot
25-12-09, 03:54
and what with stereo or multichannel 24/192 lpcm bitstreaming from wavs or flacs via HDMI? will i see the same info on my reciever's display? does it work?
HI all,
I have posted the text below, but maybe this is a better threat for it. please look at it:
Hi ,
I have changed and tried severall settings.
I have the dune on PCM. The level of de speakers is high, so in te receiver I have already put the front, centre and surround at -6 db . The woofer is at +10 db
The sonds seems fine.
If I switch the marantz from 7.1 input to spdif or a other source, the volume is also fine with the other source. In the marantz I can adjust levelsettings for 7.1 ch and levelsettings for spdif coax.
When the dune is on PCM and I am using 7.1 input on the receiver, it is fine. When I switch to dvd input via spdif, only front left and rear are working, so no surround. Even when the source dvd is DTS or 5.1
For a music dvd, sacd of other media the 7.1 ch is fine. If I want to see a movie, the explotion of a truck or bomb is much better on bitstream> spdif than on 7.1 ch.
Sander
Iīm publishing a results of my real tests of the HDMI output connected to AV receiver 7.1 with capability of HD audio codecs...
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac271/rudku/Dune30_HD_HDMI_tests.jpg
Legend:
- 3/2.1 = 5.1
- 3/4.1 = 7.1
these information I read directly from AV receiver
- red color = wrong number of channels
Maybe on another configuration (= with another AV 7.1 receiver) you can get another results.
Seems, that I find a bug, when Dune decoded (= PCM decode) 6 channels surround audio (Dolby Digital 5.1 / DTS-HD High Res 5.1 / LMPC 5.1 / FLAC 5.1) and sends it to AV receiver such as 8 channels surround audio.
With DTS 5.1 and DTS-HD Master 5.1 itīs correct.
Please, check it on your configurations and confirm me, if is true.
Hi,
If i understand well, i can plug headphone on the RCA connector (in stereo) while sound is bitstream to a receiver?
Thanks
bouchardino
09-03-10, 09:31
Seems, that I find a bug, when Dune decoded (= PCM decode) 6 channels surround audio (Dolby Digital 5.1 / DTS-HD High Res 5.1 / LMPC 5.1 / FLAC 5.1) and sends it to AV receiver such as 8 channels surround audio.
With DTS 5.1 and DTS-HD Master 5.1 itīs correct.
Please, check it on your configurations and confirm me, if is true.
I get the same result. When bitstreaming, the number of channels is correct, but if the Dune sends PCM it sends it as 7.1,
Hi rudku,
perhaps I have an explanation for the limited frequency. When you have 8 channel 96/24 it has a bandwith of 96000*24*8=18MBit/sec. With 192/24 you would have 36MBit/sec. At least in the early HDMI version 18 was the limit when I remember correctly.
I donīt know the current limit and how the devices find out whatīs possible and whatīs not.
Ralf
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